Sorry I had only known about them being new. I hadn't heard about the nixed part.



I agree with most of what you have said up until that statement. As a self proclaimed cheapo, I have shelled out a bit more for the rarer peices (De Aco is probably my biggest purchase, not saying how much). But I guess I am saying (for myself) I wouldn't nessessarly ridicule someone buying a rare peice.

Example, I can see someone wanting an original Cobra Mortal and spending more than the con verson from a while back.

Just defending us cheapos

This what I like the most about collectors. That there is such things as respect & status in the collecting world. Doesn't matter what toys you collected we are all geeks. Two fat, bald guys, living their parents basements, who collect two different toy lines have an equal chance of not scoring with a chick.

The people to whom I'm referring hardly fit that description. People who have the financial freedom to spend thousands on high end items don't tend to be socially reclusive. Usually, they are the more "normal" people who have the high end careers, stable families and well balanced lives. Surprisingly, it is usually the cheap fan who has to resort to scalping and such to pay for his collection who more likely fits the description you have above.

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So what makes somebody a "higher eschelon"? Seriously, I want to know what makes any collector better than any other collector.

Any "high eschelon" collector that doesn't respect me simply because of what or the way I collect can basically kiss my fat ass. Just because they have a little extra spending money doesn't make them any better than me.

The real problem with this hobby is the few who consider themselves the elite and look down their noses at everyone else. The fan who chases down $10000 foreign exclusives is no better than the guy who casually picks up a figure here and there.

I feel sorry for those who have to constantly berate people who don't fit their narrow vision of what a "true collector" is. I wish they'd grow up and find a better way to measure their self worth. It's sad really.

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Viperlord, I think you're taking this too personally. You're assuming beratement where it doesn't exist on a personal level from a "they" and a "them".

What I find amusing is that I have friends who collect truely rare works of art from statues to paintings to even jewelry. Their investment in their collections are so astronimically large that nothing in the toy world would compare. It isn't even apples to oranges. So when terms like the "upper echelon of collectors" gets thrown around I think its humorous because I don't remember the last time a GI Joe item was auctioned off by Sotheby.

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Just a small correction...the mold used for this year's Starscream WAS released stateside. It was featured in a TRU exclusive Starscream (painted in thrust colors, for some reason) / Vector Prime 2-pack.

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edit
missunderstood post

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D'Oh! Forgot about that.
Thank you sir for the correction!

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Some may view this attitude as "cheap", but honestly these are just toys for crying out loud. You seem to think the so called "cheap" attitiude is a black mark on the hobby, but I think it's one of the best things about it. These are toys and they are meant to be fun. I used to be one of those guys that would keep everything carded and mint, but hanging around joe boards like these turned me around and now I open everything and have fun messing around with them.

Personally I couldn't care less if a supposed higher echelon collector respects me or the way I collect G.I. Joe toys.

No disrespect meant here Mike, just a difference of opinion. I love your reviews and your knowledge of the hobby (like the history of molds) is very interesting and an asset to the community. Just my 2 cents.

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Lets see the head on the Con's female Doc figure was sort of new. They shank down the head of a 12" figure to get it so at least it had never been used on the 3 3/4" figures before. Of course that was also kind of telling us how you could make one at home if you either knew the head shrinking process or looked it up.

That's the divide right there...weather you like it or not, weather you foster animosity because of it or not, its right there. In defining GI Joe action figures as "Just Toys" you're shackeling down and limiting the possibility of GI Joe to be more.

GI Joe has cultural impact...not just as a toy that's been played with Millions of kids through multiple generations the world over. GI Joe should and could have significant cultural releveance...equal to that of Transformers or Star Wars...It doesn't and I think that's because the fan culture hasn't developed, or has been hampered by it's own devices and hasn't pushed for GI Joe to head in that direction... Maybe the movie will help affect that change...prolly not though.



My perspective on what makes one person a "higher eschelon" collector than another is acknowledgement of the divide, acceptance of the divide. No offense intended Drew...but whenever this idea of a Higher End, or Eleite collector comes up, you respond with such blind venomus hatred that it's hard not to take the side of the "elite" and simply not want to interact with you. Especialy when A LOT of the "uper eschelon" collectors are Really nice guys, and people I consider personal friends.

I don't think any "upper eschelon" collectors look down on other collectors because of the way they choose to collect...It's the way they choose to interact that puts the "common collector" underneath other collectors.

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I'm not convinced that the Con female Doc head wasn't already worked down by Hasbro...I've heard that that entire Female Doc figure was slated for an upcomming Comic pack but don't have anything concrete....Also in the past such as with Overlord or the Iron Grenadier the Club has been pretty vocal about what they did and didn't have to recreate for one set or the other.

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To label GI Joe collectors as cheap and ignorantly suppressing their hobby is short sighted and insulting. You're looking at the hobby through your own myopic telescope rather than appreciate the whole picture aorund you.

Every well developed market provides high-end and low-end products, even the art market offers offers originals and reproduction prints, the housing market offers mansions and zero-lot line garden homes, the frozen pizza market offers DiGiorno and Totinos (Ymmm, Totinos).

I have traveled all over the country dining with Joe Collectors and very few, perhaps 10%, have fit the "toy geek" profile, in fact most are young professionals (quite a few have hot wives).

I like to think that GI Joe collectors are actually savvier than some other toy genres. There are fewer of the obsessed spontaneous purchase guys who are willing to buy every collector plate and statue released. They are little generals building their armies for their personal battles of good versus evil.

What is GI Joe Collecting?

1. For many, it's a hobby likened to toy trains to our grandparents - an inexpensive escape into childhood. Lets call these guys Hobbyists. Even they can be broken down into:

A. Child at heart adults buying new toys just to play with, and

B. The nostalgic collector trying to capture the mamentos of his childhood.

GI Joe ARAH is only 25 years old, and is still on the market so this is the bulk of the hobbyists. ARAH is not an antique, it's not a limited work of art, it's a mass produced toy line that is still widely available. These collectors will take cheap repros over rare originals because they have no use or desire for rare expensive items they want to build bigger better "train-sets".

2. Then there is the "High-end" collectors. Let's call them "collectors". These include:

A. The archeaologist - who seeks to find and preserve the history of the hobby in his own personal museum. The Archeologist buys prototypes and original art work.

B. The devote completionist - who will go the extra mile and the extra buck to have everything ever produced in the best condition.

These guys have a small market to work within, made smaller by what appears to be secretiveness and a disdain for the "common" hobbyist. The thing is, 99 out of 100 GI Joe products available are so common that the "collectors" market won't support them as "high-end" worthy for another 25 years. I admire what the High-end collector is doing in preserving the history of GI Joe but blaming the "hobbyist" because they aren't helping raise the value of your collection is like blaming Nerf because baseball ticket sales are down.

3. Lastly are the rare few that generate the sterotypes we all try to live down. This includes:

A. The Obsessed Fan - these guys will buy everything with a logo on it, these are the guys manufacturers cater to with GI Joe gum, juice boxes, flags, statues, swords, etc. These guys have GI Joe tattoos, GI Joe themed weddings, and name their children and pets after GI Joe characters. Fact is, these guys are a minority in the GI Joe fandom as opposed to the KISS, Star Wars and Transformers fandoms. Consequently, it seems like GI Joe isn't as "big" but I say it's because GI Joe fandom is savvier. The hobbyists aren't slaves to the marketing machine. We all have a little obsessed fan within us, but most of us will never be worthy of appearing on Jerry Springer.

B. The Comic Book Toy Geek - The overweight, basement living, socially inept, virgin that buys multiple toylines and comic book lines and hangs out on the internet writing long replies like this one, further hindering his potential career.

I'd guess-timate that the hobby breaks down like this:

1A 20%
1B 30%
2A 15%
2B 15%
3A 5%
3B 15%

My guess is that GI Joe collecting, in fact collecting anything plastic, won't be respected as more than a "hobby" for another 25 years. Screw getting respect from "upper echelons" get soem self confidence, they don't need to justify what you do. Rather than try to get respect from "upper-echelons" who are never willing to see you as equal or better than themselves why not embrace your fellow GI Joe fans - you don't need to justify your collection with us.

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Why the fsck do I bother....

Every time this comes up, people think it's about money. It's not about money. Two of the most affluent collectors I know are total douchebags and people who I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire. Some of the best collectors I know haven't been able to buy toys in years. MONEY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT!!!!!!!!!!

It comes down to understanding and appreciating the hobby. I'll never understand why people want something that's already available but cheaper. If Hasbro came to us and said we could have any 6 ARAH style Joes we wanted, our fandom would vote for 6 easy to find already released figures instead of something new. That's a mentality I'll never understand. Less than 10% of this line costs more than 1 hour's pay. That's cheap. Most of this stuff is so readily available and inexpensive that dealers won't even mess with it. If Joe had the following of Star Wars, 2/3's of the vintage line would cost you more than $40 each. The '82's would be triple digits, easy. But, we don't so our toys are cheap and yet we STILL want it cheaper.

Look, I don't like paying $16 for an MC figure if I could have it from TRU for $3. But, MC has already released those figures. That doesn't change. As such, if TRU is going to make more figures, I want new figures. I don't care if you can't afford a $16 figure. (Though, if you can't, you really shouldn't be buying toys at all....) The fact is, it's out there and available. There are only 3 figures I can think of that are unattainable to the average collector due to limited production numbers yet are something that's actually pretty neat. I wouldn't mind those figures coming out. But, to remake every figure that costs more than $4 on Ebay is just stupid since it costs us chances at new and better figures. But, most "fans" don't get that. Thus, here we are.

I'm really sick of these debates. This hobby isn't fine art collecting. But it's not akin to hoarding happy meal toys in your garage, either. It's a toy line with the second or third most interesting history yet none of that matters when compared to the fact that Hasbro might release an exact repaint of a toy we got two decades ago. Good hobbies always have expensive items. Maybe paying for something isn't bad. In fact, having something expensive might lead to a greater appreciation of it. It's a shame that having something nice has turned into a blemish on someone's character.

I'm tired of conspiracy theories and outright paranoia about higher end collectors. It's a microcosm of the world at large and my last word on this for some time.

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Brian, thank you for that post. That's about the most intelligent thing I've read on the topic of "cheapskate vs. big spender."

I'll chime in on this - there are two kinds of collectors and neither has anything to do with money or value.

The first collector, is not really a collector in the strictest of definitions, they are people who buy toys; a mix of what ever suits their fancy and they play with them. They buy as cheap as possible (usually retail) because, hey, they're just playthings - cool to look at, fun to pose, neat story time - worthless to them beyond their play value. Basically a guy/gal who plays with toys and doesn't like putting a lot of money into it, as it's not really a major priority or investment (not financial, but of their time). There's nothing right or wrong with that, as long as that kind of collector is honest with themselves and their hobby.

The second collector, they're quite a bit more academic and professional in their hobby. You see this kind of person a lot in diecast car collecting, model trains and other more "adult" hobbies like car restoration or historical re-creationists - it's not so much about the play value but the history and value (historical, not financial) behind the pieces in their collection. These people chase history, stories and memories. People who archive *ahem*, or make databases tracking where certain variations exist and in what quantities, people who put powerful tools and research into their hobby are what I call the "academic collector" - owning the item is just half the enjoyment, it also comes down to the thrill of discovery and research.

So when we throw stones at each other in blind rage and paint everyone with a broad brush, we're missing the point. I am biased, because I fall into the latter category, but the fact is this - collector A likes to call themselves collector B because it legtimizes, socially, their hobby. So collector A can often be scornful and rather militant about collector B, who just wants to do their thing and be left alone. I will never understand why it is so morally wrong to spend your own money on high dollar items for your own pleasure.

I also do not know why collector A feels the need to constantly remind collector B how the hobby isn't about money and they just like to be big shots - y'know what I call that? Petty sophomoric jealousy.

I've seen this discussion year after year, and y'know - it's pretty damn boring at this point. I simply don't CARE what people think of my spending habits or how I invest my time and resources. And I also don't care how other people invest their resources, I just know that the instant-hot hostility from the have-nots against the haves is pretty ridiculous and a waste of everyone's time and resources. It's because of this constant bickering between factions that Joe collecting it looked upon pretty lowly by the majority of other, similar hobbies.

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