Star Wars and Transformers both have the same issues, just not to the extent. If SW doesn't have empty pegs, they just have the old pegwarmers sitting around. Transformers have been plagued with a lot of empty pegs and quick sell-thru of new product as well. The biggest difference with 25th is even where I do see pegwarmers, they aren't stuffing the pegs, where they do actually stick around. Usually they even sell after some time. Target/K-Mart still has 2 year old SW pegwarmers.

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Really, thats funny since I have seen a steady flow the both TF and SW. In fact I just found the Force unleashed figures this weekend, supposidly these are very hard to find. Had a similar experence with Animated first appearence Boba Fett and Consept Vader, no problem finding them at all. I saw Luke Starkiller (but had no interest) as well as consept trooper (no money at that time). What TF that I have had problems finding seem to have been remied with a massive restock, but even in the heaviest days I could find Baracade and Arcee. I mean really if it that easy for me to find the "Hot" items, why can't I find GI Joes, in my life I can count on one had the number of figures I have never been able to find at all in stores, but ever since the Joes hit I have had tons of problems, for six waves now (not counting comic packs) I could accept a few (like three being demand was higher than expected) but the excuses are getting to me. It's just redicuilous. No wonder Star Wars is begining to appeal to me more and more, they have a presence at retail.

I suspect that one major issue between what seems to sit on the pegs and what doesn't is also a matter of popularity combined with production and distribution.

Transformers -- HIGHLY successful movie, pretty well cleaned out around Christmas. Now I'm noticing an abundance of both new and old toys. Are these really sitting on the shelves that much, or are they being bought and replenished?

Star Wars - Obviously one of the most successful pop-culture concepts of all time. Some figures are hanging, but the line is still continuing. I found the new assortment just today, the "Force Unleashed" one. The Stormtroopers were already gone, but I scored the Shadow Guard. Clone Wars will be starting up soon, as well

Power Rangers - Here we have a case of a popular concept that refreshes itself EVERY YEAR and starts out with a MAJOR product blitz. Bandai sends literal tons of stuff to all the stores, and it generally moves. Of course there will be a slowdown, but Bandai didn't get this line to last 16 years by not understanding how it works.

Here's what I think it boils down to -- consider the three concepts I just listed -- Star Wars, Power Rangers, and Transformers. What two things do these concepts have in common? They are almost perpetually popular, and they know how to refresh themselves. Transformers has been through Robots in Disguise, Armada, Energon, Cybertron, the movie, and now the new animated series PLUS the continuation of the movie-based line AND the return of the Classics. Power Rangers overhauls its story concept every year without losing the basic fundamentals of the Rangers. And Star Wars has at least overhauled SOME aspects of itself in the past several years, from Revenge of the Sith to 30th Anniversary and soon to Clone Wars.

Has G.I.Joe done these things? Honestly, I believe it has not, not to as great a degree. Although the toy line went from JvC to SpyTroops to Valor vs. Venom during the newsculpt days, there honestly wasn't anything THAT innovative. The newscupt figures were not accepted by everyone, the line, I have to believe, failed to capture a NEW audience, due in a large part to a lack of extensive media exposure, which these other concepts certainly had, and the traditional-style sets -- the comic-based sets and the TRU multi-packs, were clearly largely directed at the longtime fan/collector, which unfortunately neither the toy companies nor the toy stores give a lot of attention to even now. To be honest, I'm not sure where to fit Sigma Six into this equation, since it was such a different-looking toy line. I'd say it was reasonably successful in the short term, but also may have suffered from limited media exposure.

Consider also the 25th Anniversary line. It is also clearly collector-oriented. And so I sincerely believe that the stores are not going to order as much of it -- and as such Hasbro is not going to produce as much of it, making it more difficult to find. While this is purely speculation, I can readily visualize toy buyers for major store chains saying, "Power Rangers? Proven hit, give us all you've got. Star Wars? Hugely popular, we want some of that. Transformers? Couldn't keep it on the shelves last Christmas, we'll take whatever you can produce. G.I.Joe? Is that still around...?"

This is why I believe that the movie will ultimately determine the future of G.I.Joe in the toy stores. Certainly the stores will want on on a potential summer blockbuster. But if that movie fails to deliver, and if the product ends up warming the shelves when the movie has left the theaters, I think that may be the end of things, at least for a while. So -- we'll see.

ummmm Power Rangers SUCK!. enough said
Power Rangers use the same articulation and same figs every yr and thats called refreshing themselves? They don't move at all here in Denver.

GI Joe did refresh themselves and you don't like it cause they aren't ARAH so therefore they didn't refresh themselves. GI JOE DOES fly off the pegs here.
What kind of double talk are you doing Trek?

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yeah i don't know where your getting power rangers from, they warm the pegs here. Every season seems like the last one with new design patterns. No new articulation, sculpts are fairly bland, and every year just kinds of runs together. When the pegs where full of red rangers, they all looked the same. I still have over half of them BTW.


the 25th is an obvious homage line, but it's bringing in more then just typical Joe fans, it's bringing in all sorts of 20 somethings who see them and want something from their childhood. Sigma six was a total innovation, the only thing similar to previous joes where their names, and a few design elements. Everything about sigma six was new and different, at least as new and different as modern toys get. Plus they gave us most everything we asked for during the JvC days. Single figures, weapons specific to figures, etc...

Plus they are articulated and full of play value. Unfortunately in this fickle toy atmosphere they didn't survive, too bad. However like all other Joes they've made way more of an impact on them market then power rangers, and lets not forgot who destroyed starwars and caused kenner to shut down in the first place. That's right, our man Joe.

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I will concede, that independent of my opinion of the product, the Anniversary stuff does seem to be selling well.


bearcatcc

I was referring to the concepts, not the toys per se. Bandai and the TV show producers have been very wise in overhauling the storyline of Power Rangers each year without losing the core idea of the Rangers themselves.

Same with Transformers -- the story concept refreshed itself each year for the past five or so. I'm not talking about the toys here. I'm talking about what it takes to capture the attention of the kids so they'll WANT the toys.

I don't see a new concept in G.I.Joe. The movie may provide this to a certain degree, and it will certainly give G.I.Joe one thing it hasn't really had extensively for several years that both Transformers and the Rangers have -- MEDIA EXPOSURE. (The Sigma Six animated series notwithstanding, and I believe that series DID help sell those toys, while it lasted.)

Granted, I'd like to see the traditional-style line return, with limited use of established characters and plenty of new faces. I'd like to see them get a really good animated series that is just as impressive as the original. I also know that's not going to happen.

As for what flies off the pegs where, I suspect that depends on where one is. Different toy lines sell better in different areas. All I know is this -- I didn't see hardly ANY Transformers in the stores the week before Christmas. Why? THE MOVIE, as well as several years of successful animated series prior to that. Did G.I.Joe fare that well around here? Well, my local Target had no shortage of five-packs on clearance, and G.I.Joe's pegs were not empty. Transformers were.

I'm not saying that the 25th Anniversary line is selling poorly. But look at it from a volume standpoint. My nearby Wal-Mart has about four pegs devoted to individual figures, and three for the comic sets. They've given Transformers an entire third of the aisle. Power Rangers has a dozen pegs and shelf space for vehicles. So does Star Wars.

All I'm saying is that G.I.Joe, as far as "presence" is concerned, is not what it used to be by any means. It had more space than this when Sigma Six was running. Now, getting back to the topic of the future of G.I.Joe, the movie will certainly change that. I fully expect that next year a considerable amount of space will be devoted to G.I.Joe -- as well as whatever other toyetic movies come out. But there is what it comes down to, I believe. If the movie is a success, and the toys do well, then I believe that G.I.Joe has a good future. If the movie flops --

Well I'm going to be the foolish one and point why I think the future looks bright. Now of course I could always be wrong because I never really thought things like Pokemon would take off so big so figuring out kids is not always my strong point.

Looking at the Toy Fair coverage this year and it looks like just about everyone is headed into the 1:18th size lately. Not just headed to 1:18th though but also looking to capture that level of detail that GI Joe and Star Wars has. Advantage for GI Joe over the other 1:18th is that super articulation is pretty much the standard on the Joes so a playablity edge for the Joes. Plus less of a gamble on the rides because Joe has always been able to pull off the smaller stuff unlike lines that need bigger vehicles.

Micheal Bay showed that you can pull off a Transformers movie mostly about boring human characters delivering lines that would have been bad back in an 80's action movie with dull as dishwater Decepticons. So unless Sommers is really going to screw up then it's hard to see a movie full of Joes and Cobras not doing well. Yea we might not have the sort of fan base that blogs much or whatever but just look at how Joe jokes outnumber Transformers jokes on things like Robot Chicken. Or wear your Cobra tee shirt down the street and see how long it takes before someone yells Cobra. We're pop icons so all Sommers has to do is just not mess up the movie to make big box office.

After Sigma Six Hasbro seems to get it again. They bring back Hama for the comic book packs and a movie advisor since Hama pretty much knows what works for fans and what doesn't work for fans. Unlike Sigma Six where you only seemed to have token Cobras now we have comic book packs and five packs with nothing but Cobras.

Kids these days don't read comic books so a break between Devils Due and the next publisher really isn't going to hurt the brand.

Plus Hasbro is talking about the brand as a property so once the movie does well that opens up video games and other places to put the names GI Joe and Cobra. Given that Transformers found a nice place between kids and old fans with Transformers Animated I'm even holding out some thin hope of a good GI Joe cartoon post movie. Then again just about anything would be better than the Sigma Six cartoon.

Some of the best looking best articulated figures of the new 1:18th era, a big budget film, keeping a lot closer to the stuff that worked in the past, empty shelves most places so it's got to be more than collectors and scalpers. I'd say the future was looking pretty good. Only down side I see is general drop off in overall toy sales if media keeps up with the whole consumer spending panic the media has been pushing lately.

I keep seeing people mention empty pegs and shelves is a sign of more than just collectors and scalpers buying a product. How do you figure that? It is just as easily a sign of low production numbers and nostalgia collectors as someone else mentioned. It doesn't mean kids are buying them. Many of the 25A figues that are warming pegs are the figures that collectors are complaining about there being too many of. So again that points to just collectors and scalpers buying them up with a few 20 something nostalgia collectors tossed in for good measure. And we all know that collectors cannot carry a line single handedly for very long.

The collectors love the added articulation. Everyone who loves 25A loves the huge amount of articulation. They put down the old RAH figures for not having enough articulation. But articulation doesn't make for a lot of extra play value. It usually means more spots for a figure to break. The RAH figures had enough articulation for most of us and most of the kids in America in the 80's.

My nephews when they were kids had as much fun with their 5 inch Marvel 5 points of articulation figures as they did with more articulated figures. And the Marvel lumps of plastic broke less often.

So who did Hasbro listen to this time around for 25A? Did they have focus groups with kids like they used to back in the day? Or did they troll message boards and ask big time Joe collectors and convention attendees? I haven't seen very many kids picking these things up when I have been at stores. And if I were a parent I'd be cheesed off when that foot joint snaps or the chest articulation snaps from excessive playing.

Is this line for kids? Or is it just another shot aimed at collectors? How many kids truly want so much movement in a figure?

Power Rangers was brought up. Yeah they do sit on shelves a lot but they also must keep selling well. BanDai wouldn't keep bringing them back year after year if they didn't sell well. And again I see people attack their articulation and the fact that they just release the same figures with new paint every year but kids seem to want them, they buy them, they play with them, so the articulation must not matter a great deal to most kids. And for a parent, the old figures can easily blend in with the new figures so it's less money spent on additional figures and gives kids a bigger playverse.


I see a lot of people here attack RAH for their articulation and talk about 21st century toys with 21st century articulation and how much better the new figures are than the old figures. WTF?? Didn't most of us start out playing with RAH as kids? Weren't they the figures that got us into the hobby? Didn't we all spend hours and hours playing and fighting and having a good time with our Joes? Did anyone care that Storm Shadow didn't have an extra joint in his foot or a swivel wrist? I never had a problem having my figures fight, throw punches, trade kicks. My Joes always had enough articulation. I was just a kid, I didn't need to copy every move exactly. I appreciated them for what they were and I appreciate them now for what they are.

No O-ring isn't a good thing. The new figures probably can't stand up to a lot of play wear wihout breaking. Yeah RAH broke too but most of us knew how to put a new rubber band in the figure. I didn't know about O-rings but I knew how to use small rubber bands wrapped over several times. Broken waist? Didn't care because as long as the figure could stand I wasn't anal about the figure being perfect. Broken thumb? Oh well then the figure became a left handed shooter. I was a kid, I knew how to get full value out of my toys.

I hope that 25A lasts a while, at least long enough to allow me to get some new RAH scale vehicles and hopefully one day new RAH style figures. But it won't last as long as RAH did. The 25A are great statues but not great toys.

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Honestly, I see good points to all of the sculpts, in different categories. But in terms of play value for one's dollar, durability, and sculpting, I wonder how Joe would have been if it were done by those at Palisades Toys.

I was reexamining a set of Army of Darkness, and I am quite convinced that their formula, from design to packaging, was excellently done. To give you two figures, a wealth of accesories, and for the most part, they are durable as Hell, the last time I saw that level of toy bang for one's buck was when the 2000 releases were done. To me, those 2000 era Joe two-packs were the best idea they had to date. A mix of vintage and later year RAH sculpts. Sedate, nearly believable plastic colors and the reissuing of hard to find accessories. I for one am quite grateful for that reissued Outback flashlight alone.

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that doesn't sound a lot like an argument for the viability of GI Joe the brand, but more an argument as to why you think the 25th figures aren't all that great.

Not liking 25th figures is fine with me, but the existence of those figures and the fact that fanboys are clamoring to get them proves that joe is still viable. The brand has been around for quite some time with many different versions. If they never make another ARAH styled figure, or 25th I know there will be something else with the Joe brand name on it down the road. There always will be until Hasbro shuts down, and even then I could see someone buying up the copy rights and trying to run with it.

Personally I'd like to get some new action team going on, I think the sigma 6 AT was a step in a good direction.

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I agree with danelb. Though it also sounds more like an argument of ARAH vs 25th sculpt. How this was better than that etc. I thought this was a thread about how viable the line is not ARAH vs 25th sculpt comparisons/complaints. Not many are complaining about em but actually praising the new look. If they had went back to ARAH or RAHC then people would have griped about there wasn't nothing new about it. We're going to gripe about it one way or the other but do we have to do it so excessively? People have said they wanted better looking figs and more articulation. They give it to us and people in turn gripe. Then there's those that will gripe at people for buying the 25th line cause its not the ARAH or RAHC sculpt of figs. Seems to me that 80% of the board likes the new line.

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Yep sounding more and more like 25th vs A Real American Hero than does GI Joe still have the Yo Joe to compete in the toy and properties market.

Toy soliders, they have been around forever. Tin soliders, little green army, boys have played with military toys long before the word GI was ever used. With the birth of the 12" Joes way back when that added something new that the tin soliders or little green army men couldn't do.

So you got a good idea on toy soliders then they decide to do it even one better by coming up with a team aspect to it. Just something about a team that people like. Knights of the Round Table, Justice Leauge, Avengers, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Power Rangers, you name it. Just like super hero teams can get fixed up for a new era so can the Joes. Change some members, change some looks, maybe mess with the back story a bit but teams just seem to find a way of coming back if the core story is good enough.

Then you've got Cobra that is never totally linked to any one group or nation so they can represent any bad guys of the moment. Or heck just the forces of evil because no one says you can't do the Legion of Doom now because of what the Legion represented in the past.

Toy soliders + team + cool villians just seems like something that will still be going on long after we are all dead and buried. Sure it's not going to remain like the 25th toys because the toy market is a tough field with everyone out to be the top toy. But the core ideas behind GI Joe and Cobra seem strong enough to change and carry on as long as little boys want the battle between good and evil.

That's not what I was trying to get at, I was just stating the excellence of the concept of a "two pack" with a wealth of accessories.

Joe will always be viable because the sad concept for humans of an "us VS them" is perpetual. There will always be that "us VS them". Some chose Cobra, others Joe, others, the smaller factions.

That alone would guarantee the franchise until folks bored of the characters.

What I entertained in thought was what if GIJOE evolved or rode the current trends of popular culture as some other lines have done. For example, when dinosaur movies were big, other companies tried to ride the Jurassic Park wave with very interesting sets. When adventure movies such as Tomb Raider were ubiquitous, the same. More adventure sets. While it could be argued that GIJOE didn't need to do this, I wonder how universal and more interesting GIJOE would have been had they done that? Yes, we had DinoHunters, but I am talking about a true investment into the trends.

Imagine, if you can, when the asteroid disaster movies were being made. Then imagine if Hasbro had thought to reissue the Crusader, with a crew, the accessory pack Cobra Drill(which is a nifty spring driven drill), and an fold out playmat of some asteroid terrain that the Joes can land on, and pretend to drill the asteroid. I am pretty sure a set like this would have flown off shelves, and had applications long after the asteroid movies were over. When the zombie fascination was in full swing, from movies to the Marvel "what if everyone..." comics, GIJOE could have made a neat run, comic, or set of figures featuring an APC, and a set of zombie fighters and an army pack of Toxo-Zombies. The franchise could have rode the same waves of popular culture as other lines have attempted, and I personally feel that they wouldn't have been thought "lame". Rather, with so much interest in the franchise utilizing whatever molds, accessories, or ideas that are still viable, I doubt anyone would have turned them down wholly. As for sculpt, I don't care if it were all 25th, or previous. The sculpt is not the issue here, but keeping the franchise viable by riding what's popular at the time, and fresh.

Space travel, time travel, or even inner Earth travel, would make for some interesting figures and accessories. Scientific exploration, new weapon exploration, or just natural disaster, something.

Nostalgia will keep anything fresh but for a time. I wonder what the franchise would have been like if it branched out from the tiresome (for me) constant conflict of Cobra and GIJOE. The constant status quo is what makes it stale, to me, and no, blatant killing off key characters is not proof of revitalizing the mythos. That's the dodge. Show me injecting the mythos with a new direction, or ride the waves of what's going on around it. But the constant "I hit you, you hit me" of GIJOE now is much like watching the Three Stooges interact.

Oh, and Caravan's got a point about toy soldiers. When I saw McFarlane's new three inch military figures, I knew immediately someone is planning using them with the Hasbro Cloverfield monster.

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I've got to agree with GITrekker in that the Joe line hasn't done much to refresh itself over the years. I work part-time with a Canadian toy distribution company and we went to the Canadian equivalent of Toy Fair this year (the Canadian Toy and Hobby Expo). We had asked Hasbro Canada to send us some samples of GIJoe as this is a line we are carrying for Canadian distribution. Long story short, we ended up getting or samples from a buddy who lives in the US as Hasbro couldn't even provide us with sample product. sigh.
Anyhow, we proudly displayed the five-packs, comic packs and single carded samples and were sure the various hobby and toy shops would be interested. We did our best to get the excitement going and these were some of the first things that people saw in our booth. The response from the buyers was 'meh'. I spoke at length with many buyers and their common problem with the line was that, despite the new bodies, there really wasn't anything 'new' with GIJoe. In the 80's they were unique and pushed the envelope of what a 3 3/4" action figure could be. The story was solid and the cartoon and Marvel comic didn't hurt either. Compared to toy giants like Star Wars and Transformers, GIJoe really hasn't done much to take kids and collectors into new territory. As one buyer said, Transformers always has something new and exciting. Star Wars, as much as some people love or hate it, has taken the plunge to explore the expanded universe while, at the same time, keeping the characters from the movies fresh. Sgt. Savage, GIJoe Extreme and Sigma 6 were great ideas but they tampered with the size of the figures and made it impossible to interact with the classic toys.
The other problem is distribution. I understand this is also a problem in the U.S. but Canada really suffers from Hasbro never really getting behind the GIJoe brand. Canadian toy and hobby shops can't always get the product their customers want. What is supposed to be a fun experience of finding the newest figures is turning into a gong show of frustration for everyone. A lot of buyers just didn't want to take the risk.
I really believe that if GIJoe could have presented something like an all new team, new vehicles and even a storyline that tied in with the originals but was going in new directions, the buyers would have been more excited.
Just my two cents.